[00:07] Unidentified:
Hello everybody. Hi, I'm Issa and I'm Ellie, I'm Jeff and glad to be here. Yes, absolutely. As you can tell, we have a guest speaker today and I'm so excited to have Jeff here. Before we get too far into it, I really want to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about today. We're going to be talking about healing shame and what is shame...

[01:02] Elly:
Shame is that voice that says, “I am something bad,” not just “I did something bad.” It invades at a very fundamental level—I’m damaged, nobody could love me, I struggle to even like myself, and I become the problem immediately.

[01:18] Jeff:
Even that idea—“I have something that you're not.” It's the antithesis to “I am a child of God.” Shame shelters us and creates separation—between us and God, and between us and others. Not having shame doesn't mean you’re not convicted or don’t want to do better. It just means making a mistake doesn't disqualify you. The qualifier is God.

[02:50] Elly:
Jeff, please introduce yourself and tell us why you wanted to be part of A Better Way.

[02:51] Jeff:
I’m Jeff. I’ve known Elly for nearly 20 years—we used to work together at a church. I was in the Army and got out not knowing what I wanted to do. My wife signed me up for college. I tried engineering but switched to psychology, then got a master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy. I love helping people understand what’s holding them back. That’s why I got involved with A Better Way.

[05:34] Elly:
Jeff was at last year’s conference, and while most attendees were women, he helped lead one of the breakout sessions. His group always seemed to be in deep conversation. At the end, Jeff said, “I want to be part of this.”

[06:40] Jeff:
One of the traps we fall into is thinking we’re the only one. But when you sit in a group and realize other people’s experiences sound familiar—it’s powerful. There were moments of “I hadn’t seen it from that perspective.”

[07:44] Isa:
My group had a lot of breakthroughs too—people recognizing when things began and how it shaped their health and relationships. It starts in your mind. The mind is the first battleground.

[08:19] Elly:
Renewing your mind implies action. The Bible isn’t just mystical—it’s also practical. Shame makes us believe others’ victories mean we’re failing. “They got healed right away, and I’m still stuck.”

[08:50] Jeff:
I told someone recently—you received prayer, but what are you going to do about it now? There are action steps required to walk out what you’ve received.

[09:45] Isa:
Yes! The spiritual self needs grace and guidance, but the body needs discipline. Sometimes Christians think submission alone will do the work—but we still have to make decisions and take steps.

[11:15] Elly:
In therapy we see that people whack one behavior down only for another to pop up. Unless you dig to the root—often unresolved shame—it’ll just reappear elsewhere.

[12:09] Elly:
Example: your spouse says, “Can you pick that up?” and your brain hears, “I’m messy, lazy, and useless.” That’s shame talking, not your spouse.

[12:49] Jeff:
It’s like Adam and Eve in the garden—God asks, “Who told you that?” That’s the question—Where did that belief come from?

[13:50] Elly:
Jeff works with couples all the time. He sees how shame plays out in relationships.

[14:43] Jeff:
I tell couples right away: God’s not going to save your relationship, and neither am I. You have to do the work. I’m not the Holy Spirit—I'm just Jeff. Don’t come just to check a box.

[15:56] Isa:
Therapy is about seeking knowledge, but we often stop before applying discipline. We let discomfort stop us from healing.

[16:47] Isa:
Paul talks about beating his body into submission—sometimes your spirit decides, but your body has to be forced into obedience.

[17:48] Jeff:
In relationships, your spouse isn’t your enemy. The enemy is the spiritual forces that want to divide. My wife and I talk about being unrivaled—no competition, no comparison.

[19:02] Elly:
What do you do when one spouse believes, “I’m not worthy of love”? They bring that shame into every mistake and assume rejection.

[20:31] Jeff:
I use Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy. It’s the ABC model:

• A: Antecedent—what happened
• B: Belief—what did you start believing about it?
• C: Consequence—how do you now act because of that belief?

[22:58] Jeff:
Even Albert Ellis, an atheist, understood that thoughts shape feelings. Scripture says the same—“Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

[24:04] Elly:
But it’s not just cognitive. Trauma and shame are stored in our bodies. You can’t just think your way out—you need somatic release too.

[25:28] Elly:
Forgiveness isn’t a one-time thing. It’s a choice. Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven. It might come up again—and you have to choose not to dwell on it.

[28:16] Elly:
I thought I had forgiven someone, but shame lingered. My belief was, “If they rejected me, why wouldn’t everyone else?” That affected my ability to connect with others.

[29:23] Isa:
Forgiveness requires acknowledgment—whether you’re the one who caused pain or received it. Shame thrives when we don’t face the full reality of what happened.

[31:32] Isa:
We rely on discipline—like working out—but ignore the spiritual healing. When that external method fails, the shame cycle returns. You have to deal with the internal problem before you can fix external ones.

[32:03] Elly:
Wow, what a great conversation. I knew this one would be powerful. We’re just getting started. There was no way to fit everything Jeff had to say into one episode, so we’re splitting it into two. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you don’t miss part two when it drops. Like, share, or leave a review—it helps others find the show.