Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello everybody and welcome back to Healing from Shame. Issa and I, ellie, are here with Jeff and we are talking about overcoming shame in relationships, so buckle up and listen in, all right certainly understand the spiritual stuff we're talking.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Do not let shame kick in. That is okay. We were all taught by the holy spirit with time and reading of scripture. So I don't want it to seem like we have this expectation that you have to have a seminary school degree and like understanding scripture, but we're just trying to tie it in actually very practical ways. So the way I was seeing this we were discussing this this morning with the ladies too God has a guideline for resetting that shape, resetting that generational. So what they're describing is generational person. It comes all the way from Adam.

Speaker 2: 0:56

So we're literally dealing with things that happen in the garden of Eden and we all have to face them and make a decision. Make a decision. We're face to face with God. Thank you to Jesus that we can face God and be like I repent and so I did this. So that's to be the first step of what they're even saying practically acknowledge that something is wrong. Acknowledge that something first with you and God first, because that's your safe place, before you even present it to anybody else. Make that acknowledgement right and then the Bible does say you know, you confess your sins to the Lord and he will forgive you. But then it says confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. So, yes, god, forgive me. And sometimes we stop the shame doesn't. Let us go to the healing part of it. Right, we walk around saying I'm forgiving, I'm free, yes, you are. But if they knew, if they knew how I really was, they saw how dirty.

Speaker 2: 1:57

I was, they would be my friend.

Speaker 2: 1:59

My husband would leave me if he knew who I really was at the core of my being, and being vulnerable with another human being is one of the hardest. I mean, I don't know about y'all, but there are times it's almost easier. I mean, yeah, because we think in our mind what. You know, he's not right here in front of me, so I don't have to face anything right now so I can tell god, but I don't know if I'm gonna. You know, hey, isa, I'm really struggling with x, y or z. I'm not gonna do that.

Speaker 2: 2:30

That's a struggle, but when we can get to that point and connect with one another and we can lean more into that healing, renee brown says uh, shame needs secrecy to, uh, the shadows keep it alive and strong, because it's like a vacuum of validation, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. So if I tell her or tell him my fault, they're not gonna like me, they're gonna leave me. But then I don't tell them, but I behave in those ways, and then they do end up like I want to be around your toxic self. Oh, you see, I was right. They know that it's a self-appeal. It's really a fact. And what god is telling you? What saying? Confess it to god, of course, because he's the only one that can forgive us the person. Yeah, but confess it to people. You're weakening the shadows, you're bringing things to the light. Yeah, I like to call it the eight mile. Okay, so it the movie eight mile spaghetti, where Eminem is making fun of himself instead of allowing somebody else. Obviously it's a version of if I'm putting all on the table, what else?

Speaker 2: 3:36

Yeah, kara said and says you know that she decided long ago that she wouldn't keep any secrets from the devil, that she had decided long ago that she wouldn't have any secrets from the devil. So she'll tell on herself. She will tell on herself. I remember when we were working at the church and I was a circumcision and she thought something had happened, she would go to the senior person and like, hey, I think this person might be coming to tell on me that I did this. So here's my idea. So she was just, you know, she's like I'm just gonna tell myself, like you know it, and if I get trouble, like it's trouble or whatever, but at least hurt me first and it's not what else did that person still comes and tells on me again at least you heard it works.

Speaker 2: 4:35

And so I think, don't taking a person back to that initial hurt and and allowing them to see it and hopefully being able to introduce something new. Introduce something new, a new way of seeing it so that they can just work with thought, have a new way of seeing it. Like for me, like I said, um, when I stopped seeing the person that hurt me, my eyes started trying to see them through God's eyes and seeing them as God's creation and seeing that they once to were hurt, it made it easier to forgive. Your anger turned into passion and it made it easier. Now I will say that first night and she is alive, but we do not have an intimate relationship, but I have at least reconciled within myself that she's not a bad person.

Speaker 2: 5:38

Okay, she's not a bad person. She is a hurt person, but she's not a bad person. And then you can still have boundaries.

Speaker 1: 5:45

So I kind of want to address and I.

Speaker 2: 5:47

This might have to split into, but we'll get creative editing because I feel like it has to be reset.

Speaker 2: 5:52

We kind of talked about it a little bit of the camera. Reconciliation and forgiveness, um, and I know you said you know reconciliation at some point in the class you were teaching that was optional. I still kind of believe a hybrid of that. Let me explain. It's not optional if somebody's coming to you repentant not that right, not from a Christian perspective, which is what I commit to and I know everybody does too and if somebody really repent and really says I'm sorry, we are all. They're called to forgive me before they come. But reconciliation should be attempted. And they're coming now, I don't, I'm sorry, we are called to forgive, we are called to forgive even before they come, absolutely, but reconciliation should be attempted when they're coming Now.

Speaker 2: 6:29

I don't think that excuses the need for boundaries for people that are not repentant Right, and boundaries don't necessarily have to. Sometimes you do have to cut people off your life completely because they're physically abusive. Whatever the case may be, that's between you and the holy spirit, because there's there's things that come correct people. Some people are called to be in people's lives to help them. But I do believe that when a person, the bible does say specifically that when there is no repentance or where there's no, no constriction, you have to remove yourself for your own spiritual state, right for your own, because it's like bad company corrupts you. So if you have somebody that refuses, that they've acknowledged they come to the truth, they come to understanding and they are willingly choosing continue to destroy themselves or around them. Physical separation is is wisdom, sure, and yeah, and into that? Um, so just read it in a better way. Yes, um, can you make the point, uh, and so I'm not going to direct quote here, but uh, it is, it is, uh, from a better way. Um, it's from from Ellie's book.

Speaker 2: 7:44

You're talking about, in the last chapter, purpose and how we all have purpose. Now, how we fulfill that purpose is different, but you believe all. I believe, like you, that we all have that same general purpose to worship God, yeah, right, and to be aligned unto others, right. You talk about your 20 years of what you did previously, and then kids leave and you go back to school and here you are, being what God has purposed you to be, right now, in this season. But then you talk about Jesus and how his purpose was come and die for us, right, absolutely, that I believe wholeheartedly. But then you talk about his bigger purpose. And what if his bigger purpose was to be a roadmap?

Speaker 2: 8:39

for us, and I do also believe that us, and I do also believe that Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 1, tells us to be imitators of Christ. So, absolutely, I believe that Jesus is a roadmap. And what better roadmap for us? That, see, he forgave us on the cross. We were forgiven on the cross. Forgiveness has been given to the entire world, but we have to receive it, because it's a gift. But more than the forgiveness that was given, reconciliation to the Father through Christ. Reconciliation. So I repented, so I was given forgiveness, but did I want to be in relationship with God? I have to repent, I have to acknowledge my wrongdoing. In fact, I believe it's first Corinthians, chapter seven, verse 10. It may be second, but I'm pretty sure it's first.

Speaker 2: 9:39

It says that worldly sorrow leads to death and destruction, but godly sorrow is that which leads to salvation, shame and conviction. What is godly sorrow? Godly sorrow is this recognition that my sin, no matter how big or how small it is, my sin, is the reason that Jesus fell on the cross. You know, and whatever it is so, we as people, like to put one another on scales. We like to put our sin on scales. We like to put our. You know, hitler was a horrible person. Hitler was an awful person. We're not going to debate that right. Horrible human being, but so is the individual and God's. If I have a little white lie that I hold on to, according to God and in the nature of sin, that little white lies is just as bad as the horror of monstrosities that Hitler is guilty of. If, if I never repent, I was forgiven, but I cannot be reconciled to God If I never acknowledge this thing. And so, when we talk about godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow, worldly sorrow is, you know, yeah, I feel bad about it, but you know, ages old godly sorrow is oh man, this is the sorrow is oh man, this is the thing. Well, what is the thing? Doubt, uh-huh, I can doubt God. No, it's just about faith, not please him. So doubt, you know, being absent or neglectful in facing all you guys got this phone piece, so right, yeah, what are these things? Yeah, all right, jeremy, ellie, jeremy. So I think that sometimes we fight in our struggle we might get ourselves up. We struggle, we doubt we.

Speaker 2: 11:54

One of the things I think on that cross was we need that recognition and we need that forgiveness, reconciliation. We absolutely have to have that in order to have a powerful life. But I think it's through this death on the cross that plugs us in to the power of the life. But I think it's through that, his death on the cross, that plugs us in to the power source. And I think that what happened in the in the garden introduction was then yeah, but it took us away from the, the, the source, the power source. We were unplugged from the source of life and we were plugged in to the source of power source. We were employed from the source of life and we were plugged in to the source of knowledge. Good, right, so just that knowledge, good people is not our.

Speaker 2: 12:39

It's not why I just heard a death for us because we're constantly I've got to be better, I've got to be better, I've got to be better. But measuring our stuff when all we all we need is so simple because we give people a list of what we should be doing. But we give people a list of what they should be doing when all we need to do what? Yeah, god is love and he calls us to love and he gives us the power to love that we with. Love has to be right. I can't love Issa if I'm holding this this. Oh well, you know she did her hair on right. Yeah, I don't know. Is that fruit of the spirit? It's the fruit of the spirit. So which is a fruit of the spirit? Mean love when you areiding in that knowledge, when you're abiding in the understanding that, yes, I am flawed, yes, I have sinned, but Jesus made a path, god made a path of forgiveness through Jesus, and then I abide in that. It's kind of like I feel like I compare it to childhood. I keep on thinking, even today, when we're talking about our children. Right, they're not perfect. They do all kinds of stuff in the house, they mess up, they ride on the walls, right, that's us going through this world, just completely trying to figure out between right or wrong through this journey in our spiritual life. But guess what? Because they are our children, children, they have a covering of residing in our home. I feel like when we enter the family of christ, we speak in the blood and we say the blood of jesus has set me free, I am a sibling or I am a child of god. Therefore, there is grace in this house where, yes, you're going to get corrected, yes, you're going to have consequences, because we're teaching you, we're sanctifying you. So I'm putting in a spiritual term, but we don't have to because you have to move out. The day they took on your diaper and they were potty training, you see. But I think we treat ourselves that we're in christ and I pooped on my panties today, so I'm getting kicked out of the body of Christ. I treat it that way. But that's not how we even are supposed to, or at least not help delete our children. There's great Jesus. God understands. We are children, spiritual, that are learning.

Speaker 2: 15:02

I want to go back, and so that actually segues greatly back into, because you ask the question how do you deal with couples, especially if one spouse is feeling shame, upset? You know, acknowledgement, uh, acknowledge or recognize where it started and even possibly go back and deal with that differently than you may have when it happened, uh. And then, um, it's been said, uh, for children, for kids, that every one negative thing that's what child in positive things are required, uh, to replace that negative. But I talk to couples you know who are dealing with. You know things that somebody else has said to them that hurt them and molded them in a way to behave, and so I also say we're all big kids. We're all big kids.

Speaker 2: 15:59

I hear it. I don't know what it means anymore at your age. I remember as a kid hearing at your age, not your shoe size, when I was eight wearing a side seat, yeah, no, but anyway, I hear you know after age, doctor, not your shoe size, you know, um, you know I. I hear we tell, we tell kids, you know, grow up, or you know what. We don't even know what that means. Yeah, really, like we, they really they're cliche phrases and platitudes. We do that.

Speaker 2: 16:35

She addresses that in her book. We say that to her. Oh, you just need to pray more. What does that even mean? How dare you say that? For all you know, I was on my knees getting to church and praying. It's this assumption that there's just not enough faith. Sure, Of course there's a template for that in the Bible, and it does discuss with having faith, but we are not the determining factor of your level of faith, right Like we don't get to tell people, you just don't have enough faith. That's why you're sick with cancer, or that's why you're like, or that's why you're like suffer. That's why you were sexually abused, or that's why that is all, or one of my favorite you were used so that I was like Lord, god does turn everything to good, but it's not why he's not like. You know what?

Speaker 1: 17:25

I'm gonna do the Ellie.

Speaker 2: 17:26

Ellie, she's got this. Somebody else made a choice and sinned against you. That's really what it happens, because that's where accountability comes in. I believe that when we do these platitudes, we ourselves, even if we're doing it with the best intention, we are not making ourselves accountable to the mantle of being a christian and really honing into the holy spirit before we speak, and to me, this is a perfectly good response. I don't feel like that right now, so I really. But I feel like this needs to be addressed and it's important that you address that. I'm gonna pray, we're gonna pray. Make yourself a part of it, being vulnerable and acknowledging I'm not okay to say I'm not equipped to do something. It's okay. Hey, even struggling with that too, that might be the healing part. Yeah, yeah, here's what we want to. We're uncomfortable, so it's like, and to the point, I remember being uh at a gateway conference years ago and, uh, there was a young man walking by and on his forearm here he had uh tattooed on him.

Speaker 2: 18:29

Mark, chapter 9, verse 24. And if you're not familiar with that scripture, just a little context to share, just briefly about it. There's a man that has a son, deaf, mute, demon possessed, that brings this child to Jesus and he asks Jesus to heal the son and build son. And Jesus says do you believe that I can? And the man's response, mark 9, 24, says Lord, I do believe, but help my unbelief. And for me, I often like to to read scripture and then maybe give it a modern-day interpretation. I want to be careful about my modern-day interpretation. Um, but with that I, what was? What was he saying? What you know, lord, I do believe, but help my unbelief. And I believe this is what the man was saying. He's saying you know, I've tried everything else. I've even visited your disciples. They were unable to do it. I've heard about you. I've even from a distance, seen some of the things that you've done, but I can't honestly say that I'm whole heartedly sure that you're going to be able to help me and my son. So do something about it. Do something about it Like, go ahead and show me what's working. Prove me right, yeah, prove me right, I believe, prove me right, show me the evidence of my belief. So you know, help it, yeah, help it. Like.

Speaker 2: 20:07

I'm not sure, you know, maybe so, and that's been me. That's been me at times where, like, I read your word and I know that I've encountered you. I've experienced you at least once or twice in my life, but this time seems different. I'm feeling separated, isolated. Do something, and that comes with relationship, which is what Christ wants for us. That's why he died so that we can have relationships, so we can go back to the garden, really going back to that trauma, to that childhood, and be in the garden with God, because Adam and Eve were in the garden with God and the sin separated them. But Christ came to reunite us, to reconcile us, so that we can repent face-to-face.

Speaker 2: 20:54

I have this theory and I think we shared it in one of the podcasts. It's one of those like not written that way in the Bible, but take with it however you want to. I have a strong belief, based on what I know about Jesus now, about Jesus' purpose of the cross, that if Adam, when god came to the garden, if adam would have said god, I'm sorry, we sinned, yeah, we disobeyed you, I, I disobeyed you and was the covering for eve, like he was appointed to be, god would have forgiven person. It would have been a forgiveness because that's the nature of what God wanted. To begin with, god already knew he was asking questions.

Speaker 2: 21:36

I think God in the garden is like a woman or a man that knows that the spouse did something wrong or just asking questions to see if you want to come clean, because there's a difference between you coming clean versus me finding out. Well, you know there is a difference. What you were saying, it's different. When I confess, like Kendra was saying, it's different. There's this level even with my children. If you come to me first and you tell me you messed up, you might get corrected, but I'm going to have your back 100%, because you showed me that we are in relationship and that I can trust that what you say you're doing is what you're doing and I shouldn't have done that either.

Speaker 2: 22:16

That reminds me of many years ago. Like I said, I've been married 23 years. I deployed to Iraq in July 2008. I remember her coming into the room and I was asleep already and she said I need to tell you something. And I woke up and I was like I know, and she's like okay, so I don't need to tell you.

Speaker 2: 22:41

And I remember that I did know, like there was already, like you know, the Spirit of God telling like this is what she's about to tell you. Like they're like, be prepared. And she's like, okay, so I don't have to tell you. Like, oh, you still have to tell me. And she was like you know, well, you know, and here's the thing, that shame, secrecy all that she needed to tell me, not because I didn't know already. She needed to tell me for her own good, she needed to tell me for her own freedom, she needed to tell me yes, and so it all ended up working out just fine, you know. And again, that was 2008. Here we are in 2005. We'll celebrate 24 years this year.

Speaker 2: 23:32

So what the enemy Joseph says it in Genesis, chapter 50, what the enemy meant for harm. The enemy meant for our destruction. God has been able to turn around and use for his good, meant for our destruction. God has been able to turn around and use for His good, for our good, and so I want anyone who's watching right now to know like you need to find that person that you can be vulnerable, with that you can confess your sins, because confession to God is one thing. That's where that forgiveness takes place. That's where our quote-unquote ticket into heaven comes into play. But as long as we walk here on the earth, we need healing.

Speaker 2: 24:24

We need healing, and so we have to be able to find those people that we best know. Yes, everybody needs to know. Yeah, not everybody needs to know. And so you know what it ended up. It wasn't even a horrible, awful thing. It was like, oh my gosh, you can't believe that. Um, so, yeah, it just, it worked out and you know it. It was manageable. Yeah, right, but it was something that she'd been carrying and it was on her and she had been carrying the weight of it alone. Yeah, but that's as a couple. That was never. That was never what was intended to be, that was never how God designed. And so when we were able to share and able to discuss, there was forgiveness that was able to happen. There was. Equally, it was yeah, that's really how I mean, that's really important.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Take away the secret. Yes, take away the secret.

Speaker 2: 25:28

You've got to pull it out and bring it into the light, because we know in the light there is healing, correct, correct. And just to tie it in again because you don't want to sound callous, the thing that it's easy for everybody to say, oh go, go now, talk to your neighbor and tell them all the stuff. Honestly, there's a fear that if we go like if I go to Ellie and I sit down I feel my guts out but I'm gonna be scared. It's a lie for me to tell you that that might never happen. It won't ever happen. There's gonna be people that are not equipped right and will judge you. So let's just start there. Let's empower everybody by saying there might be people that are not ready to hear what you have to say and it will not be able to help you. So don't let that stop you from doing that, because that's how you become stronger, acknowledging, allowing your wisdom that god gave you, which we call the holy spirit, which the world calls intuition. It is a gift from god to have the discernment and be like. I don't think it's you that I need to share this. So if you're finding yourself right now surrounded in an environment where you don't see a friendly ear, it's okay. It doesn't mean that you're right or that you're wrong. Don't take it as now. I'm right, my intuition. It might just be in a place of humility, or not.

Speaker 2: 26:54

That's why therapy is so valuable. It is so valuable because of that third party. They will ever see you again, maybe you know, and they're trained to listen to you in a way that it gives you the freedom to say it out loud and it encourages you with the intent that eventually you will share it with people in your life, because that's where the healing is. It reminds me, uh, my mom recently, um introduced me to uh and I don't even have a tic toc account, but uh, she introduced me to the tick tock trend of uh, we listen and we don't judge. Yeah, yeah, um, don't, yes, don't. Don't you just start making use of it and then, if you get to that point where you think tick tock will be out there, that's your. Now you can ride to testimony. You arrive out there.

Speaker 2: 27:46

You can arrive here, yeah, and I'm going to tell you when I put my stuff out there on in this book, it was really terrifying to me it felt like being naked and naked across the entire world.

Speaker 2: 27:59

of course, that would assume the entire world read the book, but it's still available. It's still available, you know. It's still a really good place to write these books. I've really enjoyed this time. It's been so electric. We went probably twice as long, I don't even know. I guess there's a hope we haven't lost. Yes, is this not? It was a very interesting personal conversation.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 28:32

It's been a pleasure. I just want to say, when you get to a place, you're able to share your testimony, whether it be in book or you can share it with someone else. What has happened to you, whether it be in book or you can share it with someone else. What has happened to you, I don't believe was what God said somebody else made a choice right. But what has happened to you? If you allow it, it can be used to help someone else get free, because the old saying is that God take every mess and make a message. You can take every test to be a picket of testimony. So things have happened. The important thing is that we don't get stuck in that thing and that we, your identity, is much bigger than the circumstances around you. Your identity is rooted in Christ.

Speaker 1: 29:36

And.

Speaker 2: 29:37

I just usually look up. You know I've said it about our floors and different things. Ellie was not very happy with these, right? We talked about it last time. But I told her, no matter the journey between the clay and molding it into a different things. Ellie was not very happy with these, right, we talked about it last time. But I told her, no matter the journey between the clay and molding it into a mug, your intention was to build a mug and it's still a mug. It still holds liquid. It still serves its purpose. That's our life too, what god intended for us. He created us to be in his image. It doesn't matter what life throws at us, what we've been through, how much we've sinned or not sinned, it's still what we're intended to be we're a vessel and we're useful and we have a purpose if we're here, we

Speaker 2: 30:13

have a purpose and, just like this mug, you might even say, well, there's even nothing wrong with it. Right, it depends, it's a perspective thing. Even if it shatters and falls in the ground, god is able to put it together. He really is able to remold it, resurface it and use it to make another mug, better mug, bigger mug, yeah, so, yeah. So kind of my closing thought is, as we look at this and we we think of all of these aspects, you know you are somewhere, you know whether you have started to recognize I talk about this a woman that's stuck in a hole sidewalk and she doesn't even know she's stuck in a hole in the sidewalk.

Speaker 2: 31:01

Whether or not you're in the sidewalk. You don't know if you're in a hole or it's built awareness, figured out how to get out of it, or whether you know how to avoid a hole in the sidewalk. Just know that healing is a journey. It starts somewhere, no matter where you're at start, and once we know that we're broken, it's our responsibility for our children, for our spouses, for our friends, for ourselves, for ourselves first. We put all the other people in front of us, but for ourselves first, because, just like being in an airplane, we have to put on our oxygen mask first and if we don't take care of us first, then we don't have anything left.

Speaker 2: 31:42

have any, and whether you're a Christian or whether you're not a Christian, that the human condition does better when we're healthy. Yeah, so from a mental, emotional, spiritual standpoint, like you fix me because you have my responsibility to fix me, because you have all the responsibility, my responsibility is to fix me, and I can do that with God's help and I can do it with the help of others.

Speaker 2: 32:15

I have to work. Yeah, it starts and it ends with us, even in circumstances. The serpent went and sent it, but it started and ended with Adam and Eve. Adam had pretended it would have ended there, eve would have pretended it would have ended there, but they passed the buck the next day. And now it's your opportunity to end it.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:36

Thank you for watching.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Thank you for watching us. We really appreciate you being here. If you enjoyed the episode, like, subscribe, share with a friend and join us next time. Thank you, bye, bye.